The Feminist (Canadian) Rage

0:00  
I'm Sarah Burke, and this is the women in media podcast. This is not exactly how I thought we'd be wrapping up Women's History Month, but my rage over this topic is What is bringing me to the microphone today with two very special guests. And I think my rage also comes from a place of fear. I fear that many missed the news that we're going to be sharing with you today. A few weekends ago, on a Saturday morning, I received a press release which read, Canadian government eliminates Minister for Women and Gender Equality amid United Nations women's rights summit at a time when 189 countries including Canada, met for their annual discussion. Today, we're going to learn about the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action from two women who were actually in New York as this happened. I would love for you both to introduce yourself, Jackie. We'll start with you. Tell me about the work that you do and your position in it all. Hi. I'm

1:01  
Jackie neopol, and I'm the executive director of the Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women. It's an organization that's been around since 1976 and we're dedicated exclusively to producing and supporting Feminist Research in Canada to focus on women's economic and social position in Canada.

1:18  
Hi, there. My name is Debbie Sue Cha and I am the co director of policy and advocacy at action Canada for sexual health and rights. We are a national organization that works on advancing sexual reproductive rights, both here in Canada and globally.

1:32  
And you were both in New York about a week ago with a ton of other leaders in this space.

1:38  
So every year, the Committee on the Status of Women meets in New York in the first week of March, 1 two weeks of March. And so this is a long standing thing. This year was the 69th session of the UN Committee on the Status of Women. This year was particularly special, though, because it was a 30th year review of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, which is, you know, an amazing declaration that was adopted in 1995 and every five years, the Committee on the Status of Women reviews progress on that declaration. So, you know, it was a very busy year. Feminist organizations from across Canada and around the world all come down to New York for the Committee on the Status of Women, yes, and it was

2:22  
actually the first time I was there as someone representing action Canada, our organization goes every year, but it was my first time. It was an opportunity to kind of observe how does CSW operate, and what is all the hype around the negotiations on this very progressive document. And yeah, it was a great time to connect with other feminist organizations that we've been working with here in Canada, and to meet feminist orgs from around the

2:47  
world. So I mean, we're going to talk professionally in this conversation, but I also am wondering, before we really dig in personally, how you both felt showing up in New York last week. Like, what were the things that were top of mind for each of you, what were the things that like, you know, you were feeling overwhelmed about? What were you excited about? Well,

3:07  
yeah, I think this year is a bit different, but there have been a number of other years where, you know, attending events in the US have been questionable, or, you know, raised a lot of feelings. You know, we started planning for this way before January. And I think, you know, it's important for us to get together. It's the largest meeting of feminists in the world that takes place. And so, you know, it's important for us to get together and be able to talk and strategize about ongoing issues around the world. Because, you know, regressive movements, no, no boundaries, right? No borders. So, you know, I think going there this year, of course, I was excited to, you know, see everybody, but also, yeah, a bit concerned. I give it a political context, just

3:55  
a little bit yeah, and I'll echo that last statement that Jackie made around feeling concerned. It was a top of like, a topical conversation at our organization, even down to like, should we even be going and for us as an org again, one that has been doing this work, not only at the United Nations in New York, but also in Geneva, we wanted to know what others were thinking about, including, should we be pushing for CSW not to be in New York, considering what is happening in the United States, but then also going as a Canadian organization and the Canadian feminist, well, our country is dealing with this economic trade war like, what does it mean, even as a Canadian, to be there and to, you know, spend a lot of money, especially when you factor in the exchange rate, you know, you're kind of thinking about this individual decision as much as I was thinking about that. I was thinking about the importance of being there and why we needed to be there to have this conversation, to review progress that's been made over the last 30 years, and to talk about what we're going to do going forward. And so for me, yeah, I was really thinking about, you know, what is our opposition? And and they were there. And by opposition, I'm thinking of, you know, folks who are part of regressive movements, anti right act, they were there, there. Oh, they were there so much so that they came to the event that we were speaking on that was organized by Jackie's organization, and does an org that works on, you know, abortion access, very topical conversation. That's a place that they like to pay a lot of attention to, and I think I did a fairly good job really answering their question directly, but also speaking to what's really, what really matters, and that this is a public health care issue, abortion access and srhr at large. And so yeah, definitely was an interesting place to be in, and then to know that they were also organizing side events and talking about how to combat the progress that we've been fighting for,

5:46  
it just sounds so ballsy to me to even show up at an event like that, like I'm trying to wrap my head around, were they invited? Like, anyone can apply to be a part of that, or just so, like the average person who has no you know idea how these events sort of run

6:01  
well. So to be able to attend the Committee on the Status of Women, the official program in the UN, you need eco sock status, consultative status. So it's a body of the UN that basically governs access to UN spaces. Unfortunately, there are a lot of anti choice organizations that have that status. Yeah, and it's hard, right? It's this is, I think this is a challenging issue because it's for global organizations register. This way. You have a lot of religious organizations who register, and so as soon as you have eco sock status, you can attend most of the meetings that are governed by ECOSOC, by that body. Okay,

6:40  
thanks for a little insight on that. I was was like, are they protesting, or are they, like, involved? Well, they're very

6:46  
well organized, though, I will say, over the years, their presence has been a lot more visible.

6:52  
Okay, so now let's get into the regression. So you know, the top of this press release reads, It is unacceptable that the new Canadian Prime Minister has eliminated the position of Minister for Women and Gender Equality and youth in his newly announced cabinet. This step undermines decades of progress towards gender equality and political representation in Canada, even in a lean cabinet which purports to being responding to specific economic pressures. The absence of this dedicated Minister sends a troubling message about the current government's priorities and commitment to advancing rights for the intergenerational women to s LGBTQIA, plus people and gender equality at large. What about this happening all at the same time? Talk to me about that like really right now. It

7:39  
was quite the shocker, and I think the symbolism of us finding out this news while we were there representing Canadian organizations at, you know, the world's largest Women's Rights Conference, yes, was a shocker, because none of us had been given the heads up. And two days prior to the cabinet announcement being made public, the then Minister of Women in gender equality. Was there reading a statement among, you know, alongside all of her counterparts globally, talking about Canada's success on gender equality over the last 30 years. And so, fast forward two days later. You know, I was the one watching the cabinet announcement, and we had a group chat where I was like, folks, we no longer have a wage minister. And I think because of the flurry of all the events that were taking place, and it was the last day for many of us who were there, although, you know, the activities continue on for the second week, we felt it was important for us to get together and to actually just engage in all the emotions of what we were feeling, because none of us knew that this was happening. Yeah, yeah,

8:44  
it does feel like a betrayal, like, and that's, that's kind of, you know, we wrote that in the news release. So, you know, I think it was, it's already so many emotions, like, I want to go back to that, because the status Committee on the Status of Women, you're running around, there are events held by the UN and hearing from member states. And then civil society has its own, you know, conference that they do. And so you're meeting activists from all around the world. You know, it's exhausting, but wonderful to learn from each other. So all of this, you know, you know, and hope, and it's energizing. And people really look to Canada as a leader, too, yes. And so a lot of feminists I was meeting from around the world, they look to us, to Canada, and they look at our national machinery. So women and gender equality is considered the national machinery for the advancement of women. And so if you go to the Beijing Declaration, they often call it also institutional mechanisms. And so that's what that is. And so we're here. We are at the UN really looking at 30 years past the Beijing Declaration. So that was signed in 1995 and then our institutional mechanism, the National machinery, is seems like it's just gone. So it was shocking. I think a lot of us were really shocked and disappointed. COVID. And how

10:00  
do you even pivot to the way the rest of the week or weekend goes?

10:05  
Once we started to really realize and take stock of what had happened, it was already noon on a Friday, basically. And so, you know, I think the wonderful thing is we were all together, yeah, so we were able to just us as Canadian feminist, feminist from Canada, get together and chat and figure out what is going on, and let's you know, release a short and sweet statement quickly about the state of affairs. Basically, we didn't want to get into the issues we didn't want to get because, I mean, the repercussions and the implications are very wide, and we chose not to get into that in this because we all united under this joint statement to say, no, there needs to be a cabinet position to deal with all these other issues. And so we were able to get together quickly and really put our, you know, our feminist work into action.

10:53  
It was quite beautiful, I think, like if, when I think about one of the highlights of my time at CSW in a weird, bittersweet way. It was that moment to see how quickly, like the news of this, you know, like, Hey folks, we have a new prime minister, new cabinet. The one minister who is key to all of our files has now either been eliminated or absorbed. We're still figuring out the details of that, and to see the, I'm gonna say, the feminist rage that lit all of us all and we got together to put this together. It was incredible. And I want to name that like there were young feminist delegates that were there. These are youth who were sent, you know, on behalf of Canadian delegation, who were in the room with us, and for their leadership to be like, seen while we were drafting this like part of that Minister's portfolio was also youth for So, for young feminists to now realize that they no longer have a seat at the table, like for this intergenerational group to come together and for young people to be a part of it, I felt like that was beautiful too, because it felt like, in a weird way, kind of passing On a baton to the future feminist who will be leading organizations and movements in the future, and for them to play a role in actually demanding this change. We're in a very interesting time politically in Canada, and it was really important for them to see this action from their perspective. I thought it was beautiful.

12:17  
Yeah, the unification amongst the chaos for sure. What are like the next action steps? Like, where do you start? I mean, on that Friday, you didn't have a lot of time to think, but like, now you have met with your people, had your discussions. What do you do while you're in this limbo trying to figure out what happens?

12:36  
Well, we put our energy into action, right? So that is really why the statement came to be, was that we couldn't just stew and have our own private conversations. It had to be a public statement that we could share with feminists across the country. Like when you look at the list of signatories, there are organizations from, I bet you every single constituency office, like anywhere across the country, there's an organization listed. There are, you know, former status of women ministers. You know, it's big. This is a big thing. And I think it really touched feminists across the country, because we didn't get into the issues. The issue is, you know, that not having a cabinet position dedicated to women and gender equality is a serious, serious back step. And that was, I think, the unifying messages is that one issue that in itself is an act of regression. Do you feel

13:29  
Debbie, like you understand whatever reasoning was provided for eliminating the cabinet minister for this? Or do you feel like it's not clear at all? It's an excellent

13:39  
question, because that's what we're trying to seek answers to. We have two clear call to actions. We want to see that ministerial role reinstated, but we also want to talk to the Prime Minister to get an understanding of what was the logic behind this decision. We understand as the new leader of the Liberal Party, especially going into an election with a very well resourced opposition, that there is a desire to differentiate himself from the previous Prime Minister, completely understood. But if you're going to use these cabinet positions and the new titles for many of them, and the size and the gender balance that actually isn't a gender balance, we know what it sends the message to us, which is a significantly large constituency of civil society organizations, who this government and this new prime minister needs to see as a partner in achieving the economic goals that he is looking to advance, because gender equality is key to a strong economy, and it's key to a thriving society. And so when you say no, we don't need that expertise at the cabinet table, that sends a message to us as a civil society group, that although that there are 300 organizations, think of the 1000s of people that we serve every single day. And that's the message that comes across to us. So we would like to hear it. From the prime minister himself, very least, and we also want to showcase that we are here to be a partner in, you know, advancing a very strong Canada at a time where people are really scared, at a time where people cannot afford groceries, where housing, we're in a housing crisis, all of these issues that women's rights organizations are at the front lines of dealing with and addressing through the policy work that we do, the programmatic work that we do and the advocacy work that we do. To

15:28  
give a little context, we're recording this on Tuesday, March 18, and by the time this episode comes out in a week, you know, we'll probably have an announcement about an election by that point.

15:38  
And I just want to say for like, the individual person in Canada who's seeing these organizations that they either follow or support or, you know, gave them the heads up that this happened. There are people who are now motivated to send emails to their you know, their local MP, their member of parliament about this, and are asking questions around. Is this position going to be reinstated? If so, when, before or after an election. And I think by virtue of people seeing the sheer volume, individuals are being motivated to seek action at the level of advocacy that they can which is a simple direct email to their MP and I think that's all part of like building a broader movement and to send a message to anybody who's in power that we hold them accountable.

16:36  
Going back to New York, what was your feeling amongst other Americans who wanted better for their country, and maybe stood with Canada a little more closely. Well,

16:46  
I just to say the individual Americans that I met in New York apologized profusely. So just to say that, you know, everywhere I went, if they were like, Oh, you're from Canada, they're like, we're so sorry. So you know, it's hard because the US didn't formally participate in the meetings. Hmm,

17:07  
that's interesting as well. Wonder why. I mean, that's a direct fallout from all the changes slashed in the last two months, correct? Well, and

17:17  
I think it's really important to also hear talk about how the UN itself is facing a crisis, a liquidity crisis. So because certain countries, like the US and other countries aren't paying their dues, it is financially like it's having a crisis, a financial crisis, where they're looking at a $60 billion deficit. Oh my gosh, yeah. So you know, I think there are real world implications when we see these people who are standing against women's rights or standing against human rights? You know, they're not just talking there are a lot of significant changes underfoot and around the world happening that are going to have a lot of implications as we move into the future. I think so

17:55  
we're not all doom and gloom here, because this is, like really terrible to talk about. Just to find a little light, could you speak to and maybe Debbie? You want to get into just a young person who really inspired you and why that participated? I would love to hear some of the things we should be very proud of and excited about in the future. Yeah.

18:15  
So I don't have the name of this young person, but a young person was in the room with us, and I was just so proud of how she was able to, you know, raise her hand up and provide suggestions of what should be included in our statement. And she took the lead in bringing in the other youth delegates together to work on specific language that would be included in there, so that young people weren't left behind again. I think it's important to remind listeners and audiences and even people who are concerned about this, that youth was also a file under this minister. And if we recognize what is needed for us to build strong economies and strong societies, it's investing in young people. And I think about the benefits I had as a young feminist who was in the student movement, who got to watch, you know, older feminists, you know, the aunties, yeah, absolutely kill it and be able to open up space for me to learn. I think it's just something that we need to like, reciprocate, and I think that's just indicative of what it means to build a thriving community, which is to give and to share and to come together. And so when I think of that young person who took that space. I was like, yes, The Kids Are All Right. And, you know, hopefully in a couple of years, it'll be them who are the ones leading these organizations who are them, bringing in another cohort of young people to CSW, assuming we continue to have CSW, you know, are continuing to advocate for really strong progressive language in these declarations that are looking to advance the rights of women and other marginalized genders.

19:43  
Before I come to you, Jackie, for the same question, Debbie, I'm just curious, like, where you know, where did you go to school? Where did you first get to become an activist and a feminist? That's a great question.

19:54  
So I went to Carleton University for both my undergrad and my master's, but I grew my. Feminist wings. Being the only daughter of two immigrants from Ghana, that'll make you a feminist real quick.

20:04  
Yeah, Carlton, the student body was active. I noticed that right away. I would say, Well,

20:11  
I also went to Carleton. But I would say my activism started in the 90s in the anti globalization movement and then the anti war movement there were. There was a lot going on in that period. And so that's kind of where I got my start. And then I went to Carleton and got a degree in Human Rights and poli sci and did some organizing on campus too.

20:33  
That's awesome. Feel like Carlton is like breeding that next gen always,

20:40  
and attracting those types of people too. I think people want to make a better world

20:44  
for sure. Yeah, okay, so a moment, maybe that stuck out for you. Maybe, maybe it was a young person. Maybe it was something else. But what really caught your attention in New York last week in a hopeful way?

20:56  
Well, two things. One, we were sitting on the floor in a circle, and some person who worked at the UN just came out to us, and he is like, you know what? You know, I don't, I don't really know what you guys are doing, but do you want space? And he gave us a room to work in. So, you know, I thought that was pretty awesome. And I mean, I think, I think working together collectively, and the strength that we have in working collectively really touches me. Because, you know, it's the intergenerational movement work, it's the knowledge sharing, it's the skill sharing, it's all of our different networks, all the different people we work with and sharing that for the collective. And I feel like we just all rolled up our sleeves, got the job done, because we all care in the end, right? Like in the end. And I think that, you know, when we're talking about hope, you know, and not ending on a bleak note, I think, I think the only thing that keeps us going is that we have this hope that our work will lead to positive change. Because it's not the salaries that keep us going, you know, it's none of that stuff. It's really this hope that, you know, we are contributing to something meaningful, and that maybe we won't see all the changes, but the feminists coming after us will be continuing this work, and I think that that's what keeps me motivated, is just knowing that we're contributing something bigger than ourselves. Are there,

22:19  
like, un mentorship programs. How do the youth get involved and like learn along the way, if they're maybe not even quite there yet? Well,

22:27  
just to say too so our organizations, when we were really well funded at a certain point, with operational funding, there was a lot more opportunity to have kind of an intergenerational workforce, and so you would have activists being able to learn from each other, and because over the years, and things have improved in the past decade, but we still rely heavily on project based funding. But you know, I think those are, it's the on the ground work, like being there, that is really how these feminists can be. Femtore, as we like to call it. I love that. And so because it's really hard to explain how to do a campaign, or how to pull out a joint statement out of nowhere without just doing it. And so I think, you know, I think that the movement in when it's at its most effective, is building in this these femme tour ships and these exchanges where we can work together, because the youth and young feminists have a lot to offer to the older feminists too. And so, you know, we could, we're both kind of femme toward in that way from with each other. So

23:30  
that's cool. So, you know, in this statement, it says the Cabinet position elimination is not just a symbolic loss. It has real word implications for millions of women and gender diverse people and workers in Canada who rely on government to protect their rights and advance their interests. For the average person who maybe hasn't been paying attention, okay, let's just say that. You know, they're not feminists, but they're starting to notice some things maybe you could both share, like a couple of those real implications, some specific things to help the average person understand, like, what could actually change? Absolutely,

24:06  
I'm happy to start off over the last few years. And you know, this isn't just unique to the USA. I think it's very easy to point to the US when we talk about examples of regressive movements that target marginalized people, like trans folks, queer people or women, but it is also very Canadian that we too, are also seeing a backlash on our movements, and that backlash is all coming together in a push back against progressive policies, whether that is abortion access, whether that is LGBTQ rights, whether That is our public health care system. We are seeing those things exist in Canada, whether it's through policy or even just in cultural shifts. So it's also not a coincidence that the renaming or the removal of the Women and Gender Equality ministry is being celebrated by far right actors. And Canada as like a direct, you know, win against wokeism, quote, unquote, wokeism like that is just important for us to name. And we're also seeing the policy implications at the provincial level, in particular with anti trans laws that have popped up in New Brunswick, which have been reversed because there has been a change of government, but still existing in Alberta and in Saskatchewan. These things all send a message to people when it comes to, you know, the things that we have fought for as activists, we need to continue to to preserve. And we have policies that we have fought for that we want to keep, things like $10 a day child care, or things like PharmaCare, which we are just starting to see, provinces sign on to the federal PharmaCare program for my organization, that means people being able to have access to free contraception, and don't have to worry about making rent or buying groceries in order to ensure that they can control the reproductive process, you know? And so these are the things that matter, and having an expert voice at the cabinet ensures that the issues that matter to marginalized people are at the forefront, but it's also being connected to all of the other different files that the Cabinet table oversees. That's our foreign affairs, that's our health, that's defense, that's so many other issues that require collaboration on the cabinet level.

26:22  
Jackie, do you want to add anything to that? Well? And

26:25  
I Yeah, and I agree with everything that Debbie said, and I think so. You know, we obviously want wage as a cabinet position to be able to influence these different departments, because it can't operate in a silo. It definitely cannot operate absorbed into another department at all, and why

26:41  
speak to that? Why is that important? Because it's such a key

26:44  
central issue to an equal society. It's so central that if it is absorbed, it is marginalized, it's set aside, it's cast aside, as if it's not that important. It's an afterthought. That's how I feel with that, and it's so important to have that person at the cabinet table with all these other ministers for that reason, to say, No, this is a central issue. You know, it impacts more than 50% of the population. It's a huge, huge issue women's rights and gender equality and so, I mean, I think it impacts everybody but, and I think that progress was just, we were getting momentum for some key so that a lot has been done. There has been a lot of positive advancements. You know, that department was, I think, created in 2018 like, as a formal, full

27:32  
department, so new for it to get axed, yes? Well, and

27:37  
I mean, it's, it's old in a way, because it's operated as an agency since the 70s, right? But to have it kind of be created, turned into a full department, and then acts like you're saying, it it the job's not done yet. It had a lot of work to do, you know, and it was just strengthening even the accountability measures, evaluation, the different things that it could do as an effective, you know, national machinery, and it really requires also close collaboration with feminists and feminist civil society, and to not have a, you know, feminist Minister running that cabinet position, and have it just be absorbed along with, you know, who knows what else has been added to the Whatever cabinet ends up being, whatever position ends up being under. I just think it really it takes away the importance of that, yeah, of women's rights.

28:31  
Yeah, and, like you said, they do reviews every five years for some of these, you know, to keep make sure that progress is still being made. So you're telling me that after just five years, not even close to the second five year term, it's already gone and again,

28:47  
like what we were kind of saying before, we don't really know what's happened to wage we don't understand all we know is that the wage minister doesn't have a seat in the cabinet as a dedicated position at this time, so we're really unsure about what's happened to it. It kind

29:03  
of goes back to kind of our key call to action, to get some answers to the questions we have directly from the Prime Minister, to get an understanding on what his goals are with this department, and how does our collaboration as a sector fit into that? Because I think we're pretty key. It

29:21  
feels like this is the only way to end this conversation. But what does the what does the average person have in terms of power to help with the change that you're trying to make? What can the average person do to get involved? You did mention like writing MPs, but there's got to be more. What

29:36  
else. So we have an election, folks that will be coming, and I know it's so cliche to say this election's consequential. It's this one, but yeah, it kind of is. We haven't, or at least in my lifetime, in the last 33 years, have not gone into an election where our closest trading partner and the person we share one of the largest borders with is trying to. Threaten our sovereignty. So what does that mean? And what does it mean when we're also dealing with that on top and affordability crisis, I think for people who care about these issues and are feeling afraid, you can demand more from your decision makers. When you're forced to choose between two, between the economy and social progress, you can go back to those decision makers to be like, we want both, and I think it's gonna be really key for people to keep that in mind and to hold decision makers accountable when they go to the voting booth in a couple of weeks. And so I will tease that folks should just keep an eye out, because our sector is not done, and we have something to say during the election, where we're going to be asking politicians and decision makers that we demand better and so look out for some messaging a possible campaign on that coming soon.

30:49  
I'm just going to say in the show notes of this episode, there will be information you're going to want to click on the launch of the demand better campaign, okay, to find out more information about what Debbie is alluding to there. Okay, Jackie, how the average person can get involved and engaged?

31:06  
It's kind of hard to come after Debbie here. I think she's, you know, I agree. I think, I think it's the individual measures, but I also think that, you know, if people are concerned, they can also consider supporting women's rights organizations. Because, you know, we really don't have a lot of funding. We rely heavily on project based funding. So it's actually hard for us to pivot and respond to emerging issues and challenges of the day, because most of our budgets are project based funding. So I mean, another way that people can support is they can, you know, give us donations, or they can volunteer. We are always looking for volunteers, and if they're a member of an organization and they want to sign them onto the news release, if it's we haven't, if our goals haven't been made by next week, they can contact us and we'll add them,

31:55  
okay, and we'll make sure that I have all of this stuff in the show notes as well. I Your hope for this election. Last question to you both,

32:09  
my hope for the election is that regardless of who gets elected, that the people who live in Canada, the Canadian public, still want to see progressive policies in this country, and those are progressive policies that have been actually key to the Canadian values that we have been protecting for decades.

32:32  
Jackie, yeah, I don't think that we need to sacrifice women's rights and gender equality for any other agenda. I think it should be a key part of how we move forward, regardless of what party we're part of, I think women's rights and gender equality are central to Canada. Beautifully

32:46  
said. Okay, so I usually end this podcast by giving my guests a chance to sort of give some kudos to another woman that they admire in the media spotlight. I know that not all of your colleagues are with us today. You know, although there are many of you involved, if you want to drop some names in a quick line about what

33:04  
they do, yeah. I don't know if you have been speaking to any of the awesome feminists that work in the refugee and newcomer sector, but Debbie Douglas, who is also a black queer woman and someone I consider a sector Auntie, I think would be incredible to talk to, especially as Okay seeing a backlash on Canada's immigration policy right now. Cool. I might reach

33:23  
out for a connect if I need it. Okay? And Jackie,

33:26  
I would say so Debbie's awesome. Debbie Douglas, so I mean, I think maybe my sister at National Association of Women in the law, they've been doing all this awesome work. Tiffany Butler is the executive director there, and they've been doing a lot of work on gun control, parental alienation and really concrete changes to law in Canada for women's rights and gender equality. And so that's my shout out.

33:48  
Thank you so much for the time. Today, I'll be rooting for you guys as you launch your demand better campaign, and hope to stay in touch with you both. Thank you so much. Thank you.