November 25th: International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women

0:00  
Today's episode contains discussions about violence against women, including sensitive topics that may trigger some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. I'm Sarah Burke, founder of the women and media network, a collective dedicated to amplifying underrepresented voices and topics where women's voices are not only heard, but influential. Today, I've gathered a group of women for a panel honoring International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. According to the UN every 10 minutes, a woman is killed. Globally, almost one in three women have been subjected to physical and or sexual intimate partner violence, non partner sexual violence, or both at least once in their life. The International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women marks the launch of the Global unite campaign, an initiative which kicks off the annual 16 days of activism. This is an opportunity to revitalize commitments and call for accountability and action from decision makers, concluding on the day that commemorates International Human Rights Day on December 10, all of the panelists you'll be hearing from today have lived experience as it relates to violence against women as survivors or loved ones of survivors and those who are in supporting roles within their communities. While this panel is based in southwestern Ontario, the topics and themes that will be discussed are far reaching here in Canada and around the world. Before I throw it over to today's panelists, I want to take a moment to define a few terms that you will be hearing throughout today's conversation. VA w is short for violence against women, as defined by the UN General Assembly in 1993 that's any act of gender based violence that results in or is likely to result in physical, sexual or mental harm or suffering to women. IPv, that's short for intimate partner violence, commonly known as spousal or domestic violence. This is a prevalent form of gender based violence, or GBV, referring to multiple forms of harm caused by a current or former intimate partner. Femicide, a term defined by the UN as an intentional killing with a gender related motivation, a term often used when state or government accountability is at stake. And finally, epidemic, a word commonly associated with the rapid spread of an infectious disease, which is also applicable to sociocultural and economic determinants, which affects a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population at the same time. Thank you so much for being here. I'm now going to send it over to today's moderator. Please welcome Dr Carlin Costa.

2:43  
Hey, friends. I'm Carlin Costa, psychotherapist, survivor, advocate and a host on the women in media network. Today's topic is one that 44% of women will unfortunately have had experience in, and the rest of you are the friends and family who love us today, I'm here with a panel of women gathered to honor and acknowledge International Day for the Elimination of Violence against women. This day is recognized by the United Nations General Assembly and designated annually on November 25 since 1960 where in the Mirabal sisters of the Dominican Republic were brutally assassinated, thus leading to the increased international attention on violence against women worldwide. So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, thank you for holding witness to the world of women. And I think it's time we get into me introducing some of these incredible guests that I have the honor of hosting today. So I'm going to ask each of my panelists just to briefly introduce yourselves and share why discussing intimate partner violence is important to you, personally or professionally. So I'd like to start with Jennifer Dunn, could you please just give us a quick little introduction as to who you are and why you're here?

4:11  
Sure. So my name is Jennifer Dunn, and I am the Executive Director at the London abused Women's Center here in London, Ontario. I have been with the organization here for about 13 years, and have held the executive director role for three it's very important to me, not just in the work that I do every single day, but as I live my life, because every woman and girl truly deserves to live free from violence, and so that's what's most important to me. Excellent.

4:44  
Thank you so much for being here. Jennifer, thank you.

4:47  
Thank you.

4:47  
Now, I'd like to introduce Sergeant Amy Burke,

4:54  
Hi, my name is Amy Burke. I'm with London Police Service. I've been with London Police Service for two and. Four years now, I've spent the last eight years or so of my career working more in the gender based violence sector within the police service, and in the last two years, I have been in charge of our intimate partner violence unit within London Police Service. So I mean, obviously I have very much a professional stake within the IPv world, but outside of that, in a recognition that IPv affects so many of our community members, and including various walks of life, and including within our own confinements, of our own hallways of our police service.

5:33  
Thank you. Thank you for being here and finally joining our panel is also fatumo kusao, could you please introduce who you are and why you're here? Thank

5:45  
you for the invitation. I think I joined this club, not willingly, but was forced into joining after the loss of my daughter in May of 2023 but that was the final act, or the final curtain, for a violence that expanded for eight to 18 years, her entire adult life. So it's, it's because of that loss and because of that, you know, the train ride that took my daughter and I to that trip of 18 years that I was almost made to join this club that I don't think any parents would be wanting or willing to join. So that's why I'm here to to help maybe one other woman hearing this message and trying to save herself or save her sister.

6:40  
Thank you so much. Thank you so much to all three of you women, just for having the courage and the power and the strength to be here. Fatuma also, thank you for being here. As I do know that you are also one of the honorees for this year's shine the light campaign here at the London abuse Women's Center. And I'm really excited, actually, to ask Jen, you know, based on the work at the London abuse Women's Center in London Ontario, what can you actually share about what the shine the light campaign is,

7:10  
sure. So the shine the light on women abuse campaign started 15 years ago in here in London, Ontario, and it started out very small, very small, grassroots type of campaign. And now this year, we have places, organizations, landmarks, turning purple, literally shining a light purple across the globe to raise awareness. And so the amount of growth we've had in the campaign is huge, and the purpose of the campaign is really to raise awareness, to let women know that they're not alone, that there is support available for them when they're ready, and that any shame or blame that they might feel for what has happened to them or what they're subjected to does not belong to them, but it belongs To the perpetrator of the violence, and so we, we do this by encouraging people to have conversations, to help raise that awareness. And there's, there's a lot of other pieces that are involved with the campaign, as well, around educational resources, to the school board here in in London, to the Thames Valley District School Board, and really the the London abused Women's Center, having this campaign for the last 15 years has been, I don't want to say, has caused, but I guess it has caused an increase in in demand for service. So every November, when we run this campaign, we notice an increase in calls for support, and that sort of thing, which is, which is great. It's really great that women then know where they can, they can reach out. And so it's just one of the things that our organization does to help raise awareness of the issue.

8:52  
Excellent. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. But Sergeant Burke, you know, from a law enforcement perspective, what are some of the key challenges that you encounter when addressing intimate partner violence, whether it's in November, during the shine the light campaign, or throughout the year? That's

9:12  
actually a really, like tough question to really answer, because there's so so many pieces about that that can make the investigations of IPv super, super challenging. I mean, they're very sensitive, obviously, in nature, and also even the nuance of like, how complex are actually personal relationships can be. So, I mean, there's, there's different things we have to think about in our response when it comes to that. And, I mean, we're a 24/7 365, response. So it's, I mean, it's different challenges that way as well. So I think, I think when it comes to some reporting, there's always a reluctance to report. I mean, some women don't have it, but there's that's always a component, whether it's, you know, a. Fear of retaliation, to a shame piece, to a fear of being believed by the police, to the idea that they actually might have to testify in court. There's, you know, a lot of things about that. There could be multi jurisdictional kind of issues around that too. I mean, a lot of times we're dealing with investigations that may have started in another jurisdiction. So we're trying to do the, you know, a kind of a victim centric approach when it comes out, and how we navigate, you know, what police service is reporting to, to testifying, or even when it gets to court, to try to best support women with where they're at in a lot of times with IPv there can be a lack of any physical evidence, you know, that can be even showing, through course of control, different type of abuse that that we see, it could be very historic in nature. I mean, not everybody takes pictures of maybe bruises or evidence that could support an assault. I mean, because there's no, I mean, there's no statute of limitations on the criminal code. So that's pieces that we always go backwards to. There's so many pieces to that and I mean, and it can't be, and it has to, actually, really does have to be mentioned. Even the multicultural piece that we have in our community. We're certainly becoming more multicultural in the last 1015 years, and language barriers can be another piece there as well. So there's so many different things that we see in London that we have to navigate. Thank you.

11:37  
Thank you for sharing that. And you know, Jen and Amy, I just want to validate for you. You know, I think you're both doing a really great job with what you can and what you have. But also, you know, I really want to hear from Fortuna. And the question to you is, you know, can you please share about how you're feeling? You know, as a person who has received these services, worked with London police services or with police services here in Ontario, potentially even worked with women's centers. You know, specifically in Ontario, how are you feeling about, you know, essentially the question, are we doing a good enough job?

12:14  
I think, in my experience, in dealing with with law enforcement. It's two folds. After my daughter, my daughter went missing, the dealing with the police services was was, if I look at it intellectually, it was something that they really did a good job, because she went missing Friday, and it took them a week to solve that. But as a mother, not getting all the information that I needed to know, and knowing my daughter was gone and not wanting to get there at the same time was really challenging, and so that even though it was roughly about 1012, days from the time she went missing to the time he was arrested, it's it felt like my entire lifetime had been going on. It was agonizingly slow, and I didn't know how to deal with it, but intellectually looking at it, I could see how that was really quick, and that was moved fast because there are families that are waiting for years and months and decades. But my experience while she was alive and we were trying to extricate her about that situation was not really good on so many levels. And I and I felt whatever services we have are so fractured and so not not connected. It's really hard to know what end is up. And I don't think my daughter ever received one of the things. For example, She wasn't eligible for a lot of services because her estranged husband lived in Detroit, Michigan, and she was in Windsor, Ontario. She was trying to escape but, but we were told that he is an international partner, therefore he's not, she's not considered at risk. And at the same time, anytime I because my daughter was so traumatized, at 36 she would wake up and run upstairs to my room and crawl into bed with me, because she just wakes up with this nightmare. So when we went to, let's say psychiatrist, and I told them, she's not telling you everything, because she's traumatized, her brain is in a protection mode. Can I add to it? What I need to what do you know? I don't need to know what she told you, because, God knows, I know more than I need to know. But let me add to it. And I was told, No, you can't add to it. It's just what what she tells us. I called the police service, and they said. If we take your information, it's hearsay and and, you know, I called the the the border people, and I said this man, why is he being allowed to cross the border all the time? Because he had some charges outside her case. And I was told in the document, it says you might be in, admissible to Canada if you have this or this. So it depends on the officer at the border whether they decide to let him go come in or not come in. But nobody ever stopped him. He was always getting the better end of that. So I think, to be honest with you, this province, at the very least, I don't know about the country, but this province, at the least, lacks over whole system that says the medical like, like they have in UK and so on, medical professionals are required, Just like they're required to report on children woman that's in abuse. I'm a high school teacher. If I know a man is abusing his wife and child living there, I'm mandated to report that child, even though the abuse is not against child. But when it comes to women, there is somehow this mindset that overrides women. Is the fact that this is an adult, is still, we need advocacy, still, we need support system. I, I, I don't think we might think this exists. This exists. Women should come but it's not that easy. Women are not this person is so her and so traumatized. They can't get the services, and we don't have support system for that. And even going through the legal system, there is virtually no support system for the families. This man who took my daughter's life has more rights than the rest of her family.

17:01  
Thank you for making that distinction. For Timo, about, you know, different experiences that you had, and like the different chapters of the experiences that you have, I think it's a very important distinct distinction, because as we discuss, you know, where can we do better? It's important to to to talk about, is it the before? Is it the after? Is it the jury, like, Where can we kind of fit in some of those services and be bolder and better and stronger, you know? And I think that's a lot of the work that Jen is doing, you know, in in reflection of the question I asked you, you know, are we doing good enough? There has actually been some exceptional movement in Ontario, namely, with Bill 173 the intimate partner violence epidemic act of 2024, and you know, I'm very honored to have Jen here to give us an update, because I know you're, you're very involved in it, but could you give us an update on what Bill 173 is and where it's at

18:04  
So and actually, this is a interesting connection so far too Mo and I actually first met because of Bill 173 we were both invited to Queen's Park in April, and that's the first time I ever heard you Far too mo speak about about your daughter. And so that's kind of how the conversation started around asking for TUMO to speak about her daughter for the shine the light on women Abuse Campaign. So Bill 173, it's, it's, I mean, great that there's a bill like this hitting the Ontario government. But I have to say, I am feeling quite disappointed with where it's at right now, to be honest with you, Carlin, so for those of you that don't know Bill 173, or the intimate partner violence epidemic, act of 2024 is an act to declare it's exactly as it sounds, an act to declare intimate partner violence and epidemic. So there's a lot of municipalities across Ontario that have declared intimate partner violence and epidemic, and there are MPs. MPP, sorry that brought this bill to the legislature and wanted to see it happen provincially, provincially as well. So on April 10, we were lucky enough to be invited to Toronto to attend a debate for this bill. Unfortunately, instead of the government deciding to just pass the bill, knowing what a problem intimate partner violence is right now, they decided to send it to study, which basically means a committee of of the government studies it so they speak with different people who might be interested in the topic, different stakeholders, different maybe they'll speak with survivors organizations that are on on the ground, doing the work, and get more information and decide what they want to do. Two. So unfortunately, the bill has actually the study has not started yet with committee. So the committee is doing a study on intimate partner violence right now, but it's not as it's related to Bill 173 so I know that the MPP is are pushing for movement with that, but right now, that's where it is. So it went through its first reading, went through its second reading, and but it's kind of at a at a standstill, which is super disappointing, and mostly disappointing, I think, for for for women that have been subjected to intimate partner violence, mostly because it brings up the feelings of not being heard and it not being taken seriously. And so you had, you had said, off the top about, you mentioned the definition of an epidemic. And so, you know, I think it's important that, you know, we have the definition of what an epidemic is, and we talk about how it's, it's a health issue or infectious disease. And so sure, intimate partner violence might not be an infectious disease as one would define it, but intimate partner violence is a huge health issue and costs the government billions the federal government billions of dollars. There was a there was a the stats can put out a report. I think it was, I think it was in 2009 which is very old, where, with where we're at now, and it was seven point billion dollars to deal with the aftermath of IPv across the country. So I could only imagine what it is now. And so I would argue that it is actually a health issue. There are a lot of pieces at play. Women who have been subjected to to violence of any kind are often left with significant trauma, not able to navigate life. And there's, there's so many, so many different pieces that I could touch on on with that. But with regards to Bill 173 Yes, it's great work. And, and the thing is, it has to be implemented, right? Like, yeah, it has to move. It has to receive royal assign. It has to, we have to get to that point so, and

22:22  
I think, you know, you spoke, and Fatuma also spoke about not being heard. Is the intention that declaring it an epidemic will then bring in resources from municipal, provincial and federal government, so that, you know, whilst Zara, you know, is saying this man is dangerous, she actually can get the tools and resources that she deserves. You know, while women and mothers are navigating legal systems, you know that they can get resources that they deserve and tools that they deserve, is declaring it an epidemic. Is that the move then, in order to get more money

22:59  
for me, when I think about this act, when we were in the parliament trying to have the government declared, I look at it twice. We are in 2024 and we are asking, asking, just for this government to say, this is epidemic, yes, just asking them to acknowledge women's bodies need to be safe, at home, at workplace, on the street, right before you even get to a money, before you even ask anything else. We are trying to get the government, you know the MPP that came to Windsor when they send that to study. I don't want to say his name, but they were asking dinner that cost $200 per person, so they could talk about the bill. 173, just, just think about that. So that's number one for me. And also, if you today, go to a doctor and you're not feeling well and the doc. Why do we go to the doctor? When you go to the doctor, they tell you, Okay, we run this test, we do this, we do this, we do that, and then we find out this is my grade, and this is how we're going to deal with it. You are not going to deal with any issue unless you name it. Yes. But I want everybody listening, man, woman, anybody listening today to think about we're begging the government to just say this is epidemic in 2024 and their answer is number one, it's not a disease. Talk to my family. I have I'm from family of 56 members. The youngest is six years old. All of us are still reeling from that trauma. Going to 56 six year old is still going to therapy to deal with why his aunt cannot, cannot show up for for holiday dinner. Why did she send his birthday gift? How come he called and left the message on her phone? How come children call him back? So it's, it's, it's the mindset of we invest, and our government tend to invest where there is value. Clearly, in my opinion, woman is safety has no value to for the government. Therefore the refusal of saying it's not disease, or we're going to study in a way to kill it and delay and not do it. We can't even mention money. I dare not even talk about money. Then they will just run for the hills. Yeah, it

25:35  
sounds like you're saying for Timo, and I don't mean to just paraphrase, but it's almost like calling it an epidemic is about recognizing the humanity of women, yes, and saying, Hey, we're real people that are being faced with this way too often.

25:51  
And we have this issue right here, facing mothers, sisters, daughters, girlfriends, but and we need to look at what is going on here? Why can we deal with in 2024 Yeah, but then try and convince Ontario government to even get there?

26:08  
Yeah? No. I appreciate that perspective. Thank you so much, because that leads me into my next question, which is, you know about recognizing some of these gaps? I think what you just spoke to is about recognizing a huge gap in our current systems approach to preventing intimate partner violence. So it you know this is to all three of you. This question is, how can we fill these gaps? Is the acknowledgement of this bill, one of the first ways to maybe just say, Hey, by the way, there are gaps. Are you seeing other gaps that maybe this bill doesn't address?

26:47  
I think, is it okay if I respond first to that? Okay? Sorry. So I think that the legislation is just one part. Whenever we're doing work here from where I sit at the London abuse Women's Center, we look at things in three different parts. One is legislation. Of course, we need proper legislation in in many different, many different ways. Bill 173 is just one way to do that. But the other two pieces are funding. So there's not enough funding. And I know Fauci you just spoke about money and not wanting to bring that up, but the fact of the matter is, is that there are organizations across Ontario and across the country that are over capacity and not properly funded. We all need to fundraise and ask our communities for for money or consistent like constantly apply for one time grants that require a lot of work, that are not sustainable, and that sort of thing. So we are constantly trying to come up with with new ways to be properly funded. And the third one, and these are in no particular order, because depending on the topic you're discussing, one of these might be more important than the other, but education and awareness. So there needs to be more education and awareness in in in many different ways done. So, I mean, we could talk about young people, specifically, specifically young boys, for example, school boards, they're doing an amazing job, but there is room. There's room for more. But I think about and for tomorrow, I know that you're you're a teacher. There's so many three things thrown at you all of the time with what you have to do. And I know that, but the community needs to do a better job coming together and working together to engage men and boys and talk about what, you know, how this is not only a woman's issue. And you know, I know that, according to statistics, the vast majority of perpetrators are men and the vast majority of victims are women. So typically, when I speak, it's a we're talking about perpetrators being men and victims being women. But you know, we need to talk about from a young age, you know, even as young as kindergarten age, with regards to healthy relationships, that doesn't have to be in an intimate partner, type of relationship that could be with, with friendships and and how you're being treated, and what is respectful, a respectful friendship and not and I know that those types of things are already taught just by the nature of the amazing educators we have, I know in our school board, but more just needs to be done. I mean, I know that, and I know we're going to touch on preventative measures and education later, but I mean, maybe I'll wait. I'll save what I was going to say for later, because I think it fits later, later a bit better, but I think three So the three things, legislation, funding and education, are really three very important pillars when we're discussing this for sure.

29:52  
Thank you. Thank you, Jen for defining you know those pillars? I really appreciate that, because as we continue this podcast, we're going to touch on all three of those. And you know, but I really also want to hear from Sergeant Amy Burke about, you know, you are the people who respond to these calls, right? So I'm sure you see the success, you see the challenges, you see the failures, you see the gaps, you see so much of it. And I have a two fold to our conference, little conversation blip that I want to share with you here. But the first part is what protocols or specialized training are currently in place for officers when responding to cases of domestic violence, and are there areas in the response protocol that you feel need more development?

30:39  
I think a lot of times by the time the police are involved, it's almost too late, like, and I'm not saying like it from a preventative stance. I mean, there's things in preventative work I think we can do. But if we're looking to avoid, like, a situation getting to the point where we would have grounds to arrest somebody for a criminal offense, then that's something the police certainly can't do alone. And I mean, it would be phenomenal if we could have more kind of preventative, kind of resources, or directed more that way. From a police response angle, that's always a challenge for from a training perspective, we have the Ontario Police College domestic violence course. So that's just, it's an eight day course. We have a lot of people actually within London Police Service getting that course right now. We just work to actually have it course accredited so we can teach it. So that means, like London Police Service would be teaching a number of our frontline officers. So that's certainly a huge step in essence of doing better. I love that we're doing, that we're looking at, hopefully having it accredited, and then running our first one the beginning of February. So that's a big step. But for other like other investigations, that can be, you know, more challenging where, you know, more education can help, that's something that I do, is something that I would have my officers do. I can think strangulation is a big one. We just did a series of a bunch of training in relation to strangulation, and that is just an essence to ensure we're not missing cues there. So certain things that we would see that is evidence based, when we go and we go to a report of strangulation by by procedure. Now we have to have EMS attend with us. But it's even going deeper than that, like in talking about injuries to you know you that you might not see injuries and just things like that. It's some it's it's nuanced and in it, and it's something that certainly I saw as being a gap and in and I worked to address it in a way I can

32:45  
Excellent. Thank you. Amy is and sorry, just a clarifying question, just for my own curiosity, are trainings like that considered like a continuing competency. You know, like, for example, with the college that I am registered with, College of Social Workers here in Ontario, we have to continue to do continued competency education programs, etc. Is IPv training, you know, and all the various ways that we can discuss this. Is that a continued competency for police officers?

33:17  
I would say, yeah, it is a competency for police officers, I don't It's not like a core competency, because there's so many things that the police do. So it's not something that everybody would get in that in that essence of that training. It would be kind of more in that ID of our professionals or experts within the police service that would be getting that. I think it'd be phenomenal if we could do that much training with everybody, but I don't that's just not going to be practical, unfortunately.

33:47  
But I'm planting a seed here, friends, I'm planting a seed. Yeah, you know, because, because one of the things you know as as a mental health professional in this field, you know, I've worked in women's shelters, I've worked on the other side, counseling men who have been accused and convicted. I myself am a survivor and an advocate all of that great stuff. But you know, I went on Reddit the other day and there was a question posted on our Canada and the question was about given today's kind of socioeconomic culture, you know, it, which I am defining as the your body, my choice, culture that we have now just kind of been slammed with, so to speak, I'm freaking out. Other women are freaking out, you know, the question asked, What are the legalities surrounding things like self defense as a woman in Canada, you know what? I think the the writer was being a little bit facetious by saying, you know, are we allowed to carry brass knuckles, air horns, you know, expandable rods, pepper spray and like, the comments were really interesting. But. You know, really up until this year as, just like a citizen of this country, yes, I There has always been a risk. Yes, it has always been a continued conversation. But there's something new that feels is brewing. There's something new. And I think that's why that question came through. So could you just briefly, just touch on, like, what are the legalities of self defense in respect to kind of preventing your own violence?

35:30  
I'm assuming you're directing that's a really hard question to answer, because I would say that that is really based on each individual instance. However, I can say when it comes into more of the IPv lens, we seek to find dominant aggressor. So that's a piece where, you know, you could get into a defensive wound. So like an example, that would be, if you're being strangled, the person who's strangling you is probably going to have injuries, like, whether it be scratches on their arms or anything like that. So like, defensive wounds, that's important. So we even if a woman, for example, and again, I'm using women as being victims, men as being perpetrators, because we're sitting at about between 85 and 90% of it being that way, it's really important to try to determine that we could have a woman who may be in a primary aggressor situation, and the police are involved, but if We look at the relationship in its entirety, we could quickly realize that actually, she's not the dominant aggressor here, he's the dominant aggressor. I don't know if I'm doing a great job of it. Was great that, but, but we, and I mean, and those things can be, and we determine that through a number of different ways. It can be actually reaching out to friends. Could be reaching out to family, different things, like, we have to do that, because if we end up making an arrest on the wrong party, we certainly could be affecting or complete safety moving forward. And we don't want to be in a position of doing that.

37:11  
Yeah, and, you know, I appreciate you defining that like a dominant aggressor, because a lot of the comments in that thread, it was really interesting, because people actually kind of responded hopeless. You know, people were responding and saying, if someone comes and attacks me and I end up defending myself, but causing more harm to them, then I'm the one who gets charged, right? So I appreciate that nuance there. It sounds like there is a nuance. It's not just, you know, even though everyone kind of might be taken back to the police station, you know, there was a nuance with understanding. Well, how did we get here, versus face value 100%

37:52  
and I think we do have to look at it, the average woman does not have the physicality or physical strength that a man does. I mean, even the most strong women amongst us, right? They still have that element. So, I mean, can women act out violently 100% but we have to look at that in its entirety, and not just from a simplistic level.

38:22  
You tomorrow

38:35  
again, I just I'm going to continuously thank you for sharing your story with us. But how was your experience navigating then the justice system? You know, I heard you give a lot of praise to how you were supported by your local police service after your profound loss, but what were some of the challenges and successes that you even experienced in navigating the system?

38:58  
I think the the system, when it comes to the actual justice system, because it's and I'm just learning now that that the police, they do the investigation, they arrest the person, but that's it. They gave, they give witness testimony of what they did, the interview, they conducted, the evidence they have, but that's it. Then you move into the justice system with another beast on its own. But what I found is that, you know, it's on Crown prosecutor is great in doing what she needs to do, in trying to get the case to to to trial. But what we noticed is that it's moves exceptionally slow, agonizingly slow. So that's number one. Number two is that there is really no avenue for the victims and their families to access information. And I understand there is like double. Edge sword. Where is it's they did the crown and the police and everybody needs to protect whatever evidence they have, to make sure that there is no claim of not getting fair justice or fair shake for the accused. But the person who's accused has a lawyer, the person who's accused can access information and look into those files, but the family has no idea, to the point that we don't even know when a court date is right. For example, I have three of my children live in these days. One of them lives in Toronto, so we're told there is a court date, such as such day, and they all fly in to be here. But we didn't. We weren't told the date had changed, and we just showed up that they had the court they were told, Oh, the date changed, and like the kids are saying, but we had to fly all the way from there. It's a, you know, it's, it's waste of time. And the answer is, you could join virtual, but I don't want to join virtual. I want to be here in person, but I can, I just have somebody send an email, but he knew that the date was canceled because he has access to services than than we do. And and another challenge for me personally is because I might have to testify later on, so I am not in in the room where the preliminary healing was happening. So I have, you know, five children that are going in and hearing all kind of awful things, but I have no connection with my children to debrief or talk about what happened or what was said, because to protect just in case I'm called to be a witness and and it's we have victim services. But also the victim services is so over taxed, the workers are dealing with more cases than that eight hour work day allows so it's really I found it to be challenging, and it's going to be another place where we need advocacy for for the victims and their families. And now I have a great appreciation why a woman who face violence, whether it's a physical assault or sexual assault or emotional assault, are often leery of reporting because you have to repeat the story over and over again and to this person and to that person and to this person. Because I remember telling my daughter, just go talk to the police, and she was so hesitant. Didn't want to do it for her own reasons, but now I could see, and say, I could see why somebody doesn't want to be involved, who wants to do this. So I think there is, there is this doesn't mean to to undermine the hard work that the crown does, or the police service frontline work, like I said, our wizard boy services day, I'm sure they spend hours on a weekend and everything, watching videos, trying to bring this case to to a conclusion and arrest the person and find where her remains were. But still, there is these pieces that are missing, and I consider myself to be, you know, somebody who's little bit understanding of the system works. I speak the language, I have an education, I can I'm more than willing to get into somebody's face and say, you didn't say this, you didn't say that. But just imagine people that don't have those resources, don't have those connections, don't have those understanding of how things work. So I think advocacy is one of the things that we need to infuse into the system.

43:53  
No, I appreciate that for tomorrow talking about that re, re traumatizing experience, you know, I hear it all the time from some of my own patients, you know? So I know that this happens. I hear it, I get it, and I appreciate you sharing that. On the other side of that, though, I would like to hear from you. You know what support, support systems did help you? You know what has been helpful? I

44:18  
think what has been helpful was connecting with people in the community, people who survived, people who, when I started talking about it, would say, this happened to me too, and I understand where you're coming from. It's, you know, the police officers who investigated that that would come and sit with me in the course hallway, in the court hallway for 10 hours, even though that officer that was his day off, and he was in particular required to be there, or the police officer who investigated that would come when they're on the road patrolling. But when they have an hour break, they will come when we have a court date, and they will say they will just sit. With me, without saying anything. My contact with the police victim services had been fantastic. She even though the case now moved from the police to the crown, she keeps you know, in touch with me and and supporting I found once I start talking and hosting some events, I found immense support from the community, whether it comes to donating to events I am, you know, initiating or sending me a message to social media telling me they stand with me. It's the support from the community my everyday wizard rights from London, women abuse, women incentive, reaching out this podcast, I think I'm getting a lot of support that makes me realize that I'm not alone in this. It's and my daughter is not just lost to me, a lot of people in my city are feeling the loss and saying that this should not have happened. What can we do to help? So that's, it's, it's like, like you were saying, Jen was saying that, you know, community gets involved, even even the students at my school creating, you know, posters and and signing cards to to support me. That has been really immense, and gives me so much faith in in our individual even if we complain about politicians, individual person that feels for the other person. Thank

46:31  
you for that. For tomorrow, how else can communities then continue to rally together to support survivors and families affected by intimate partner violence? I I'm hearing for TUMO is getting a ton of support, which I love through her even, you know, her own podcast, her own words, but there's a lot of people who can't stand in that strength. You know, I admire for two more so much for her, standing in that strength and sharing the story. You know, how can communities rally together and support everyone else who don't have that same access.

47:05  
I think over the years, there's been, there's been more of, more of a shift. I think, you know, we're seeing women will share that, you know, maybe so and so listen to them, or you'll have a father bring a daughter into our organization, or, I guess, what I'm getting at is, I think there's a general sense of women being believed more, but not enough, and not to the extent that we need it to be. And I mean, so people are listening. You know, we've had more I mentioned this before with our shine the light on women Abuse Campaign. More traction with that campaign than ever before. So people are listening. But there are still some big gaps. And I mean, there are community members here in the City of London that have no clue the severity of the issue, or don't even know that trafficking exists in our community. And so like there were since, since July 2023 there were four women murdered in the City of London. Four, wow, four women. And that is simply not okay. And there are people that don't even know that that has happened. So we need to keep talking about it, and we need to keep talking about it in a very loud way. And so this is why i i absolutely love that you are having this conversation. Carlin and and women in media is having this conversation because it needs people need to know this is not an issue that that happens over there. It's happening right? I don't know what over there is. I just meant not right here, but like it's happening here in our own backyard, and we need to pay attention to it. And so we often have conversations here in the office, like, because sometimes it can just feel like we're up against a brick wall, like, what are we going to do? Like, what are we going to do? We can't. We can't, I can't stand at a microphone again next November and talk about more women being murdered. I don't want to do that. And the reality is, probably will have to. And it's like deeply, deeply disturbing and so sad that when we were planning this last the this, I guess we're in it right now, the shine the light on women Abuse Campaign. You know, when we had started planning that there was a 1716, year old girl who was still alive when the planning started, and she's no longer alive anymore, and it's absolutely heartbreaking. And we don't need to be doing this anymore. So we need all levels of government and all community to continue talking about it. And you know, the province declaring intimate partner violence an epidemic is one little, tiny step in the right direction. But I mean, really, there's more that can be done.

49:58  
I know Amy. Some comments, I can see her?

50:02  
Yeah, no, for sure, I do. I'm actually just thinking, just from a police standpoint, and how volume esque our response is to IPv. It's a huge portion of what we do every day, from a uniform level response. But I think too is like having our social agencies and in the VA W sector working so closely, along with me and having those open conversation is that even if there's a woman who's super reluctant on reporting, and Jen, for example, knows me, trusts me, likes me, you know, the human component kind of comes out, and we can kind of breach some of that to actually make somebody think about, maybe they will come forward. Maybe they will trust police. There's that extension of trust that happens and, I mean, that's a huge important piece for me. I would say, I mean, I've been police officer for a long time. I don't ever really feel like we're winning anything, um, but like in a grand scale. But when we actually get these uh, relationships that we can develop, and we can talk amongst our like each other and with each other as human beings and and show our concerns like we're really doing a big win for the community of London and nobody. I mean, it's not something you see. The community doesn't see that in the same level. But it's super important that we're able to do that.

51:28  
Sorry. I'm really glad that you brought that up. Amy, I the relationship pieces is absolutely huge. Over the past three years, we've been working really, really hard to try to and I think it corresponds with coming back after the pandemic, if you want to call it that, where everybody was so siloed and working apart during the pandemic and really needing to just do something different to, like, get back to the basics, I guess, if you will, and have, you know, more relationship building and figure out how we can work together. I mean, there are times where we will have a situation happening here at our office, and we're like, what, okay, what is the next step? And I will be like, I'm going to call Amy, and I call Amy, and we figure out, you know, what we can do to make this maybe work or not work, or just, you know, think about some ways to present to the woman who might need some, some extra help, and just kind of figure it out together. And so thanks for bringing that up. Amy, it's, it's an absolute huge piece with with the work that we're we're doing.

52:30  
I absolutely love doing work like that. I think it's so impactful just to be able to do things like that, where you can build relationships within community and just not be separate. Yeah, no,

52:41  
I think that's great. You know, we're speaking a lot to community building. And you know, I appreciate all of your responses, because, you know, on on one hand, I'm hearing Jen Talk about the government is stalling, so to speak. I mean, I know you didn't say those words, so I'm gonna say them for you, Jen, the government, the government is stalling, right? And it almost feels like Queen's Park isn't taking this seriously. You know, Amy, I hear you say, you know, IPv is something that police officers we face with every single day, and yet, training for how to deal with IPv isn't like a mandatory continued competency on a yearly basis for a majority of men, especially who are police officers. I'm not not a criticism more just hearing what you you're saying. You know when, when women like for TUMO are saying like, I don't even know when court dates are changes and things are and I get it. This isn't just a one, one sided issue. But you know what I love about the main focus here is that we're talking about community, and that's where change really starts to mobilize and really starts to step forward and create changes. Was there comments? I just see some of your faces. I was like, I just want to make sure I there weren't any further comments to that, because I do want to move into, you know how, how can educational initiatives, schools at work in the home with families? You know, what kind of messages or programs can be effective? Are effective? What is working from an educational perspective, from a community building perspective.

54:24  
So I think, and I touched on this a little bit before, with with working with the school board. So we were quite close with the school boards here in London. I shouldn't say London, Thames Valley District School Board, which is goes outside of London as well. And we do all sorts of things with them. Show up. Whenever they ask us to show up. We have been on webinars geared toward parents to talk about different topics, things like that. It's really great to be engaged with the with the community in that way. But what I wanted to say when we're talking about this, I mean, we need. To look at. And it's quite interesting when you look at it through this lens, really is just how people are brought up with gender stereotypes. And so you can go into a toy store and toys are separated by what should be stereotypical boys toys and what should be stereotypical girl toys, and then you have young kids who are brought up knowing right away, just by looking at something like that, that there's a difference between boys and girls, and then it goes, it goes from there. And so there's a problem from from the ground up. And when you have, for example, young people, or I'm using young people as an example, but it's everybody looking at like, for example, our professional sports organizations, and how all of them are also men. Where are the women in in these types of fields? And I know that that's happening now. There's a professional hockey league that's that's going on, and obviously, WNBA all of that. I understand that, but it's 2024 so that should have already been well established and on its way right like, I think you know, so then men or boys are going to pick up on what the difference is and what the power dynamics are. And so there's so many I could go on forever. And I think as a mom of two young boys, it's and doing the work that I do, I know what I say to them on a daily basis to kind of keep them on track with having, you know that that the sense of how women are equal, women are equal to them, girls are equal to them. And I know what I have to do for that, and I can't possibly imagine what that must be like for, you know, people that that don't know what to say or don't know what to do or don't have the ability to and so it's, you know, that's just the beginning of it. That's not even talking about these big systemic changes with regards to legislation in the way that we do work, and telling people not to, not to rape people and abuse people and and all of that. We need to look at it in a in a really big picture.

57:00  
Yeah, for for tomorrow, you're a mom, you know? What do you say to that? So,

57:04  
so I, I am a mother, and also I teach at the high school and and it's, and it's really a challenge for the the children that are in high school, and it's staggered. So you have children that are based on their cultural background and so on, they don't, if they get into this dating situation, they really can't go home and talk to mom and dad, because it's not this is not something that was sanctioned in the home, and it's challenging for the child then to figure out where to get support system, where to get their support or some questions answered. And I'm finding that now it's when we have, you know, young men especially, are in a challenging situation, when they are in a violent situation that they are that they are dealing with, and they because the society tells them, you know, you're a man, you shouldn't really say that. So I, we have, we have big my school is a big football school, so when a football player says that, oh, I just this is what happened to me, and then they can't really talk about it, because it's not really allowed. So So for me, just maybe I'm a teacher, I believe in getting to the kids in the younger years, maybe senior high schools, and especially the first year of university, because that's when they're away from home, get into these relationships. So that's why I actually hold annual conference where we talk about in the first week of December, as a part of the 16 days of activism, where we bring youth and and and experts and survivors of violence to talk about, what is it that we are, how we recognize This, what are the signs? So our our second annual this year is going to be December 4, and I was particular about including young people from high school who are going to present their own personal experience of what happened to their mother with a boyfriend or what happened to themselves. So I think giving young people the tools, both male and female, and telling them, you know, we need to get ourselves away from this that said Just Say No, when we were educating the kids with drugs and just saying they just say no, I think just say no doesn't work. Somebody has to see what are the ramifications of these actions, and what are some of the signs you ignore, even though they're there right in your face, what are some of the signs that you could do that I had a young man who says to Me, a girl was wanted to be a little bit more intimate that he wanted to. And he said, When I told my buddies, they said. What's wrong with that? They couldn't understand what was wrong with that. So it's, it's really education is really the key. And getting to the young people and their parents, especially at the this vulnerable age, when they are figuring out who they are and and we, we socially tell them by 16 you should have a boyfriend or girlfriend. By 17, you should do this. You should do that. So I think that education is very key for in my opinion,

1:00:29  
I would agree. I would agree. Amy, do you have anything to add to kind of this kind of preventative theme?

1:00:34  
I agree with what both the other ladies have said here. I mean, it's everything in education piece, and starting very young and having that understanding. I actually have two step sons, but they're, they're adults now, so, but I mean, could I've been a bit of fun record when they were growing up? Yeah, probably, and just trying to push that understanding on them as well if they didn't hear it from other places? Yeah, there's the gender you know you have to hear those things as you're growing up. So I think from a prevention angle, like from a police standpoint, is always a challenge. And I mean, I go back to community partnerships when it comes to that as well, and in involvement of our victim services in our crisis intervention unit as well, wherever they can step in. I mean, I think it deems if we're looking at prevention of of any incident happening, or are we looking at the prevention of femicide, you know, all those things that we have to take in consideration, it's such a big issue to look at.

1:01:32  
Yeah, thank you so much, Amy. If it makes you feel better, I'm that hard line auntie. So I get it. I get it. Yeah, good thing somebody is, you know,

1:01:43  
yeah, we can be real fun at parties, right? Yeah,

1:01:46  
consent is fun. Yeah, right. And, you know, as we're expanding this conversation and, you know, continuing to look at policy and legislative changes, you know, we're talking about like grassroots and community and members to members, but also looking at policy. Is there any inspiration from other systems, say internationally, that are creating any notable frameworks that maybe you know we want to kind of mention, or we're planting seeds today here also, right or or are there any specific legislative changes or policy reforms that you believe would significantly help in the fight against intimate partner violence, kind of who's doing it better? Or how are they doing it differently? And can we match that?

1:02:31  
I have two things to touch on with with this topic. Is, you know, we talked before about the province declaring intimate partner violence and epidemic and I think, you know, we need to continue to do work like that. I know that from from our end and some of the things that we do, and I know there are other countries around the world that that do similar things like this, but more resources need to be available and more opportunities to collaborate and work together from across sectors. So I'm talking about the social service sector. You know, anything from training professionals, doctors, nurses, educators, educators, law enforcement, opportunities to come together and and work together. Because here's the thing, like not there's not one single police officer, doctor, or whoever, who's going to know all of the all of the pieces of all of the different types of things that they have to know on a daily basis, just like we in the Violence Against Women sector can't possibly know all the nuances of policing or educating, right? And so when we can come together to to to work together on things. I think that it's, it's so, so important. One of the other pieces I wanted to touch on was around privacy and consent. And so right now, and I'm glad Amy mentioned femicide. So right now in the City of London, we have some pretty big conversations happening around creating a high risk action table for femicide prevention. And so what that will look like is organizations. And we have 19 organizations who have, who have, have signed on to be a part of this, the police included, to work up, to work together, to come up with what a new service could look like to help with femicide prevention. So privacy and consent comes into play with that, because the way that we work, the way that our core services work, is we need consent from women to do anything, but we want to start talking about what that could look like. So and far too mo talked about that a little bit as well. So when a child is in danger, sure, when a woman is a harm to herself or someone else? Yes, we will, we will. There will be some privacy conversations that that maybe can be be broken at those points in time. But what about when a woman is going to lose her life? What about when a woman will be murdered? When can we do that? And so those are some, really. Conversations that we're happening. We're having right now. And I think it's, it's, it's really important to have those conversations again. This is, it's moving slow, just like far too mode you had touched on before, too. But with this work, we're like, you know, it's going to take a while for us to get to the point where we have an operating service to be able to do this work, but we have to do it. So we're, it's, it's, it's good what we're doing, but, yeah, it takes, it takes a long time, but it needs to be done.

1:05:33  
I didn't want to steal Jen's fire on saying that, because I figured that was kind of more for her unbelievably important work, like from my viewpoint, and viewpoint is both me and from the London police service like to work together in a kind of a collaborative nature, to come together and do better. That's huge, and for us to figure out how we best do that, coming together is very important, and it's not something that has or should be done hastily. We need it now, but that doesn't mean we should just, do, you know, figure things out on a whim. Like this has been something that we've been working towards even for a while now, and I think it's super exciting work, and it's super exciting to see where it's going to take us in the community here as well. And it really does allow us to showcase our work too. And I mean, it's like you gain a better knowledge from each other than you ever do working by yourself.

1:06:30  
So looking at the in the global sense, there was this renview County inquest that was published in 2022 I believe, after three women were murdered by the same person, and I think that inquest made reference to how United Kingdom deals with, with with with this issue, and I think they're at the forefront of Having a commission to oversee this and work through and I know different communities have greater initiatives. For example, London area seems to have moved further than, for example, in my town of wizard when it comes to involving the police and having this work collaborative, and these tables and discussions and things like that, that's something I would love to get involved, but I don't know where to start, but I think that inquest included in a commission that can navigate and it would be, it would be federal and provincial and and each community would have the same look into it, and it's how to navigate to make sure we we we reach and and support and save the lives of women, while at the same time protecting their privacy. We don't want to be worse health privacy and whatever to be thrown out the window, because that could would not lead us anywhere good. But I think then the challenge is so. So that was one of the recommendations the inquest had made. But number one recommendation was to declare that intimate partner violence, so you kind of name the disease, and then you move on and and I think establishing a commission is one of the ways, and they said, We need to model it after in the way UK does dealing with with this issue, which is there is actually reporting system from the doctor to to the shelters, to transitional homes, to what they call Council home, which is subsidized housing, right? And also our governments are not adding, I don't think in the city of Windsor that I live, there has not been a single um rent income geared or subsidized housing built since 1980s or 1990 so there is nothing being added. So the wait list for those homes are are nine years, eight years wait list. So it's that adds to the challenge of a woman trying to flee this relationship has nowhere to go, and we were trying to help her have nowhere. And in Windsor, every single night our shelters, their capacity is almost outstripped by the need. 120% 130% every single night of the year. Yeah,

1:09:36  
for two more you touch on something really important, right? Second Stage housing and the funding that is afforded for that. And you know, I think Jen touched on it as well. You know, one of the most frustrating things for me to witness is how stalled funding for this particular topic that affects more than 50% of our citizens is, you know what I mean? I just my mind, my heart gets really like I get I get emotional, I get energetic when I hear like we haven't built second stage housing since the 1980s and not just in Windsor, in in London and surrounding area, and in many different places. You know, I get frustrated when I hear Jen Talk about, you know, she has to fight for funding. Every year I've dealt with the Public Health Agency of Canada, it is not fun to fill out those funding those funding forms, year after year after year, to have to prove over and over again about where money is going and how we are supporting our community to like the extent that it is being requested. You know, I hear the frustrations. I honor everything that all three of you are sharing and and how hard Amy is working to build community partnerships, and I'm sure she has, we haven't talked about it, but I'm sure you have experienced resistance on all different levels, you know, to connecting it in so many different ways, and we're just trying to keep people safe. You know, that's all we're trying to do.

1:11:10  
If, for example, when I got a got of my relationship, 27 years ago, I was able to get into geared income home, and I was only paying $92 a month for a four bedroom house owned by the city a woman like me, and that allowed me to get out of the relationship, to go back to school, to rebuild my life and raise five beautiful, contributing citizen children. So I think a woman like me in that place would have no hope in prayer to find a house like that because the bank is depleted. Yes,

1:11:48  
yeah. So to wrap up this podcast, but not this conversation, what would you say to somebody who is listening to this podcast, who's either experiencing something that we've discussed, or know somebody who is experiencing something that we've discussed. The

1:12:06  
first thing that I would say is that you're not alone, and there is hope available, help available when you're ready. And I think you know every every different municipality that could potentially be listening to this podcast, it's going to be different. But there are provincial Helpline Numbers available if you do a simple Google search and look for help in your area, or Google search the assaulted women's helpline, or here in London, the London abuse Women's Center, I know that we welcome any call at any time from anywhere, and we will be able to help guide you in the right direction for for you, and we also very much encourage family or friends or anybody involved in the life of a woman who might need support to reach out as well, because we can give you as much information as we can, which then sometimes makes it easier for the woman to make her call when, when she feels like it's red, it's time for her. Maybe then she'll have the information that she needs to do that. So, yeah, I guess, I guess, just to wrap that up, to know that they're not alone, that's the most important part, and that there is help available when they're ready.

1:13:17  
Thank you for that, Jenna, and I just want to reiterate, you know, that piece that you said, which I think is so important, it's even if it's not you directly, call, call us, ask the questions. Ask what the resources are. Ask what is available, even if it's not you directly, whether you are a friend or family member. Because I hear that all the time, it's like this is happening to somebody I love. What can I do? Access the resources, because if you don't access the resources, then we won't have any answers for anything. And so for those of you listening, you know we are going to link in our show notes resources through the Government of Canada public health agency. We are going to link sheltersafe.ca as well, so you can find a shelter all across Canada. We're going to link the London abuse Women's Center as well and give everyone just some, even just quicker, direct access to some of those resources. But for AB and for TUMO as well. You know, what advice would you give to somebody who's listening or who loves somebody who is in in the situation?

1:14:19  
Agree with what Jen said, they're definitely not alone, that's for sure. It's a hugely impactful issue. I think from I want to give police related advice as I'm sitting here as a police officer, I think having an understanding of what it means when the police show up and what might happen is important, and the agencies that I work alongside certainly can give great advice in relation to that, and so can I that's a big piece. And I think too, you call 911, you know you're going to get police coming. There's no doubt about that. That's a guarantee. But I mean, it's important to have some understanding of process and what it might look like, because

1:14:59  
I do know that. Some of the hesitation is, if I call the police, I'm not aware of what the protocol is, what's going to happen. And you know if I call 911, police are going to show up, for sure. But I want listeners to remember that you can call non emergency lines and ask for more information, get connected with your local officer who does do this work, such as Amy Burke. Anything else about that piece there? Thank you.

1:15:23  
No, I ask questions. I do that all the time, so people are educated and have that knowledge coming into it and are caught off guard or find themselves in a situation in which they didn't quite want to be in with the police as well. Thank

1:15:36  
you so much. And for me, anybody listening that's in that situation, or know somebody that's in that situation, I wanted to tell you that you did not imagine it, and it's not in your head, and it's not your shame or your fault and safety you feel. It's will. I'm not going to tell you here to to get out or to leave. You're going to leave when you're ready, but just remember that it's not something in your in your imagination, that's causing it, and it's not your fault that is happening. And I hear a young woman that would read to me and say, Oh, I think this was going on. But my sister said, you know, all, all relationships are like this, or my mother said this, and I what I will tell you is other people's opinions, other people's views, other people's take on the situation is interesting, but not relevant. Not relevant to you because you they did not walk in your shoes. They're not in that house when the doors are closed, they're not hearing or feeling what you're feeling, so they're not bad people. They don't hate you, but they haven't walked in your situation. So just see it as their take on it something that's really interesting, because that's how they see it, but it's not relevant to your situation. And when you do, and I hope you decide to get out, and when you get out, try and do it as safe as possible. If you reach out to a friend, reach out to somebody you know would support you, not somebody that will tell you, Oh, you're imagining it, or just give them a chance of or Do this, do that, just remember what you're assessing, what you're feeling are real. Just you need the time to get out.

1:17:27  
Thank you. Thank you for that message.

1:17:29  
Jen Carlin, Can I say one more thing? Thank

1:17:31  
you? Oh, yes, please. Okay.

1:17:34  
I just, I wanted to say too, that organizations like ours will also not make women leave their situation, regardless of what that's like for them. We, and we've been saying this so much over the last years, we really want to meet women where they're at and so far to I'm glad you you said what you said, and it is truly up to the woman when it's ready, when she's ready to leave. But we can in the meantime, you know, help with safety planning or strategies to help her stay safe and when she's ready to leave, we're there for her as well. I think that's a huge, a huge piece that I that I missed saying, is just that if a woman decides to call our center, or any other organization, it's typically the same across the board, that you know, we want to meet you where you're at with whatever that looks like for you

1:18:26  
and and what I want to add is that we are when you listen to this podcast episode, you might hear a lot of what's missing, what's not there, but I don't want to be able to get discouraged and say I'm not going to Get help. Help is still available. We're talking about in hopes of making better than it is, and making to a place where we don't need to have these podcasts. We don't need to have these discussions. Jen doesn't have doesn't need to have this shelter. Amy can do deal with other crimes and not these ones and and all that would be then that's what we're hoping to get there. So I don't want anybody listening to this podcast and say, okay, that it's all doom and gloom. I'm not going to get help there is. There are resources and and look at the show note and try and see how you can access those resources that will give you information whether you would stay or leave. It's up to you. Thank

1:19:21  
you. That's very so valuable for Tuma, I appreciate you ending on that, because that can be feel discouraging sometimes. So let's remind people all genders, there is hope for you. There is somebody who wants to listen, there are people who want to help you, who believe you, who love you and who are ready, whether it's a counseling session or financially or with a big truck to take your stuff out, there will be people there for you. Any final thoughts that either of you would like to just quickly share before we kind of say our goodbyes to. Day, I

1:20:00  
just want to say thank you for talking about it, and I want to send my thank you and far too, Mo, I thank you so many times when I saw you last but seriously, I can't not do it again. Thank you so much for speaking out about your story and and your daughter's life. And it's, it's so appreciated that you're bringing that to to us and allowing people to hear what you have to say. So thank you so much.

1:20:27  
Thank you, Jen for for doing the work you do. I know it's not for the faint of heart, but I'm glad you're in the trenches and and I know it feels daunting some days, but even reaching out one woman one day, that's that's worth the effort. Amy, thank you. It's hard sometimes to see the uniform, especially. I grew up in a communist government where the uniform didn't really represent positive but I'm really glad you're there and and Carlin, thank you for leading this and invitation. I really appreciate any opportunities I take. I get to talk about this. I like to talk about it, to just have somebody else here.

1:21:07  
Thank you.

1:21:08  
I think for me, I just, I feel super touched. I was even included in this, to be honest, as a police officer, I, you know, like and having my thought processes, or my, you know, or even placing my work out there a little bit is awesome. And I so much appreciate the shared stories and and how we're coming together on this I think it's phenomenal. Yeah, thank

1:21:30  
you. Thank you all of all three of you. Thank you for sharing your stories. Thank you for sharing these resources. Thank you for sharing this information, and thank you for truly shining the light on the global epidemic that we are facing. And thank you to our listeners as well. You know for tuning in and holding today's conversation with an open heart, this is only one part of the conversation, so if you are a known friend, family member or colleague is at risk, please take a look at the resources, helplines and shelter information linked in the description of this episode. And as always, a big thank you to Sarah Burke and the women in media network for donating all of their time, for getting this episode out there and organizing it. Wim is a network that I am very proud to be part of, and I hope you will check out some of our other amazing network hosts and topics that include subjects such as mental health, body image, financial planning and overall women badassery and unapologetic empowerment. So thank you very much all of you for being here. Thank you

1:22:32  
on behalf of the women in media network. Thank you so much for showing up to hold space and witness this conversation with us. A heartfelt thank you to today's panelists and moderator. You can find out more information about all of them in the show notes and for more from the women in media network, head to women in media dot network and follow the shows that resonate with you. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai